Hello everyone! I’m very pleased to be able to present you all I did with an interview with Mark Bunker of XenuTV. Also known as wise beard man. Yes, his beard is wise. His face is beard.
For those of you not in the know, Mark is quite well known for exposing a lot of things Scientology. We are former co-workers, and I recently thought he would be a fascinating person to speak to for the website.
So read up, he gives a lot of interesting insight!
Jordan: Mark, what prompted you to sort of take up the mantle of being one of the primary people working to expose Scientology?
Mark: Well, I never set out to be a primary anything and it’s up to others to decide if I even am. I just decided to speak out back in 1999 because I felt it was the right thing to do. I don’t like bullies and Scientology had frightened way too many people into silence over the years.
Jordan: Was there a particular event or situation that made you decide to speak out in the manner that you have, or was it an accumulation of things?
Mark: I don’t think there was anything that prompted me to speak out in particular. It built up over the course of a year and took me that long to get up the nerve to show my face and reveal my name.
Mark: There was one thing that convinced me to step up my activities, man up and confront Scientology. I had been working behind the scenes anonymously for a while, supplying video for other people’s websites. Then Bob Minton announced he was joining the board of FACTnet. Bob was a retired international banker who had started helping people abused and defrauded by Scientology.
I was pretty impressed by the guy when I saw him on TV shows like Dateline NBC. I emailed him and told him I’d be happy to help him in any way I could from a video standpoint and he immediately gave me a call and invited me to a cult conference on the east coast. That’s when my life changed. And when the Scientologists came to picket me at my home. I knew there was no turning back.
Jordan: If you would, please tell us know how you went from sort of a behind the scenes guy to having Scientologists at your doorstep, quite literally. To being harassed and bullied.
Mark: The biggest case of harassment besides the picket of my home and the constant PI’s following me everywhere would have to have been when they had me arrested in Chicago while I was trying to conduct an interview with two dentists on a public sidewalk.
Jordan: Now, how does that work? From my understanding as a journalist who has done many interview on public streets, with private parties…I don’t see where that become a legal issue worthy of arrest.
Mark: I flew there because the dentists had been trying to get back $20,000 from Scientology for courses they paid for but never took. They had been trying for two years to get their money back. I was doing a little bit of the interview in front of the Scientology building (they call it an Org) but before I got even one answer from them, two thugs flew out of the org and arrested me.
They were off duty officers who were told by Scientology that I was dangerous. I had to stand trial a year later and was found not guilty very quickly.
Jordan: That’s unreal. So were the officers working off-duty at the “Org”, or were they uniformed?
Mark: Scientology spent $300 to hire these two officers. We found out at the trial that they were there two hours before my arrival. Scientology had built me up into such a danger that they swept past the dentists and grabbed me by either arm, told me I wasn’t wanted there and I should leave.They were dressed in black leather and when we asked for ID’s they got frustrated and said, “that’s it” and cuffed me.
Mark: I was booked, fingerprinted, and thrown in the slammer for four hours before being let go on bail. At my first court appearance, I had hired the top attorney in the city who told me “Don’t worry, this is piddly stuff.” We tried to tell him that’s not the way Scientology acts. The Scientology attorneys met with the District Attorney. Announced they had a half hour back room meeting delay my appearance. When the DA came out, she told the judge, “we are adding three charges — resisting arrest, creating a public disturbance and battery on a police officer!. And since this involved a religion, we are treating it as a hate crime.” My attorney was stunned. I told him so.
Later all those extra charges faded away.
Jordan: Were those officers ever reprimanded in light of what came out during the trial?
Mark: The officers weren’t reprimanded as far as I know. What really bothered me was the videotape of the entire event was in my camera when I was locked up. I got my camera back the next day but the tape had vanished. I wanted to file a compliant but my attorney said it would only piss off the police and make the case harder.
That was my first first-hand look at corruption.
Jordan: Wow. That’s pretty scary stuff. Mark, why is Scientology so scared of what you know? It seems like they’re willing to go to some pretty extreme measures in regards to you.
: They don’t like anyone speaking out against them. In the past they could frighten away individual journalists with their intimidation and threats of lawsuits. CNN told me back in ‘99 that they had three stories killed by the network attorneys to avoid the possible lawsuits. The net has changed everything.
Jordan: It has, and you have absolutely been at the forefront of that. What is the thing people would find most shocking about Scientology if they weren’t at all familiar with it?
Mark Where to begin? Most people think of it as that wacky thing Tom Cruise is involved in. It’s some nutty Hollywood religion. How bad can it be? But the truth is, they have done and continue to do some very bad things.
The top leaders of the church including Hubbard’s own wife went to prison for the biggest covert operation ever run against the US government. Operation Snow White was the name of Hubbard’s plan. They had Scientologists take low level jobs at various US agencies, including the IRS and the FBI and for two years they systematically stole documents and bugged offices. Hubbard let his wife take the fall and hid for the remaining years of his life in the California desert, never once calling or writing her while she rotted in jail.
Many people are finding out about the wacky mythology. South Park had a big hand in getting that out. But people may not know about the paramilitary organization at the core of Scientology, the Sea Org and how members sign a billion year contract to come back and serve Scientology lifetime after lifetime.
That’s the type of devotion these people have to the group. The type that makes them willing to run covert ops, for example, because Scientology must survive.
Jordan: Which leads me to the next thing I wanted to ask you about, what is it about Scientology, what tactics or methods do they employ that cause such devotion? Particularly in very wealthy, famous people who are among their most notable devotees?
Mark: Scientology fills a gap in your life. Everyone has a vulnerable moment at some point where something is lacking. Scientology is good at finding what that one thing is and then playing to it. They call it “finding your ruin.”
Here’s how blatant Scientology is in their recruiting. If you’ve ever met a Scientologist on the street, it’s likely at some table where they are offering you a personality test or more recently a “stress test.”
Those people are called “body routers” and it is their job to actually route the “raw meat” into the Orgs.
Yes, we are considered raw meat to them. Once they get you in, you are surrounded by positive, upbeat individuals who are trying to help the world.
Your life starts to center around Scientology and your friends and co-workers are now likely Scientologists, too. You get cut off from reality. Scientology training and courses start to strip you of your reality and replace it with Hubbard’s so soon you think what they want you to think and behave the way they want you to behave.
There is a great video which take’s Professor Robert J. Lifton’s theories about mind control organization and relates that serious info in a fun and humorous manner, “Mind Control Made Easy.”
Mark: Scientology fits every one of Lifton’s qualifications from loaded language to mystical manipulation.
Jordan: I’ll definitely link that!
Jordan: Mark, I know that in the course of your research, you’ve met people that have been able to “see the light” and leave the “Church”. What did it for those people? What was the straw that finally made them say “I’m done” ?
Mark: It varies but for many it is anger at current church leadership. Many people mistakenly believe that David Miscaviage is ruining the wonderful organization that L. Ron Hubbard created when, in fact, Hubbard was a scoundrel himself. Lots of people felt the exact same way when Hubbard was alive and running the dump.
There are far more former Scientologists in the world than there are current ones.
So that’s a first step out, Some then join the “freezone”, which continues offering Hubbard’s tech away from the heavy hand of Miscaviage and his goons and at a far lower cost. Scientology of course hates this and tries to crush these splinter groups.
Mark: For many, as with Tory Christman and actor Jason Beghe, they reach a level and realize Scientology is not delivering what it promised and suddenly the balloon pops and they see they’ve been used and bled dry financially and emotionally. Tory calls it the Truman Show. Suddenly you run into the wall and discover it was all a sham.
Jordan: It’s all very sad. All the wacky Xenu alien stuff aside, it’s pretty serious business with a massive amount of money involved.
Mark: Yes and tax exempt money, too. People can believe any wacky thing they want including Scientology. Knock yourself out. Just don’t lie about what you believe and stop the abusive practices.
I have no problem with people in the Freezone, those are the ones pursuing Scientology outside the official church. They aren’t ruining people’s lives the way the Miscavige’s organization does.
Jordan: Talk if you will about what people can do if they want to learn more or get involved. Obviously Anonymous has gotten a lot of attention for the events they hold. You addressed anonymous and suggested that they go about their expressing their disdain for Scientology in a different way. What do you think of that movement?
Mark: Google is your friend. There’s a wealth of material on the net. www.xenu.net is the first stop for most. It’s the granddaddy of Scientology critical sites. There are many more. Professor David Touretzky has a few terrific sites about Scientology’s front groups such as narconon and Applied Scholastics.
I have links to them and others on my blog.
Mark: There are several great books about Scientology, my favorite being “Bare Faced Messiah”. It and others can be read on the net.
Anonymous has done a spectacular job taking to the streets to protest globally once a month and often times more. They’ve flooded YouTube with some very creative and informative videos as well as leaked a lot of important Scientology material.
Most recently, Gawker has posted audio of Hubbard speaking in his own voice about Xenu and the alien mythology which Scientology goes out of it’s way to lie about. The net makes it possible to publish the proof to counter their lies.
Jordan: Will there be a day that Scientology folds?
Mark: I doubt it. You still have people who believe the moon walk was faked on a studio backlot.
There will always be people who will believe in any nonsense. But the net is certainly drying up the pool of people for them to sucker in.
There are neo-nazis and KKK members and people who believe the most vile things. You can’t crush an ideology no matter how hard you try. there will always be someone who “believes.” And I’m not putting Scientology on the same moral level as those examples.
Jordan: No, I understand what you’re saying.
Mark: What I would hope is that the government grows some balls and goes back to the good old days before 1993 when Scientology was not tax exempt. They sued the IRS and won their exemption through intimidation and fear. That’s the way Scientology like to work.
Jordan: Sounds like a schoolyard bully in that instance.
Mark: The IRS agreement was sealed and the organization given special privileges no other church gets. That has to change. People should rise up and at least get the tax exemption revoked. You want to audit away your thetans? Go ahead but leave the tax payers out of it.
A school bully that could bring the IRS to its knees.
Jordan: That’s outrageous. That should be what concerns ALL taxpayers, even if they don’t give 2 squirts about any of the other stuff.
Jordan: Ok, since you have earned the nickname of Wise Beard Man, just how wise IS your beard? Can it do any of the following: Recite Pi to at least 100 places? Map the Human Genome? Do the NYT crossword?
Mark: My beard grows more wise as it grows more grey. At least that’s what I tell myself. Anonymous put together a lengthy list of myths about my beard.
Jordan:Haha, that’s great, I love it.
Finally, Mark…I have a category on my blog called “Dumbass of the Day“. When I clicked on the DOTD link the other day, an ad for Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard loaded on the page. Ironic? Funny? Or message from Xenu?
Mark: They’re on to you. Look out your window. They know you are typing to me now.
Jordan: Oh no! I better get my tinfoil hat on…lol!
Mark: Scientology has started a massive ad blitz on the web to counter the effects of Anonymous. That’s another nice thing Anonymous has accomplished. They are wasting a lot of Scientology’s money on fruitless ads.
Jordan: I feel sort of weird about having that ad on my site. I only saw it the one time, but I’m curious to see what will happen when this interview goes up and the tag says “Scientology”.
Mark: I think you can block advertisers. The lousy thing is Scientology has been able to block sites. Enturbulation.org had a Google adsense account. When Scientology ads started popping up on that Anonymous haunt, Scientology complained to google and enturbulations adsense account was canceled. All Scientology had to do was block that site but instead they used it as an excuse to hurt the site’s revenue by stopping ALL ads.
Jordan: Oh, well. If it ever came to that, you know me well enough to know I’m scrappy. When have I been known to shut my mouth?
Jordan: Mark, thanks for doing this, I truly appreciate it.
Mark: Terrific. It’s been fun. If there are other questions, I laid out everything in an exhaustive interview on my blog. Feel free to link to it as well.
Jordan: I definitely will. Thanks Mark, talk to you soon!
Editor’s note: You can see more of Mark at the Xenu TV YouTube channel.
Addendum: If you are scratching your head as to why Scientology ads might be running on this site when you read this story, please read this post. It was in no way intentional!
Sadly, you have flash scientology ads on your website, in this very article.
You know better.
Thanks for the interview.
Nice interview! Thank you
WOW. By using the name Anonymous I am assuming you are representing the “group”. You obviously do not understand how Adsense or any other ad generation software works on the web. Aren’t you guys supposed to be hackers or something?
This is the “group” supposedly going to stop Scientology? And to think I had faith in you guys. I guess you should put aside your uber XSS and ARP injection attacks to brush up on basic web knowledge.
Sad.
Great interview though Jordan. I think I’ll grow a beard in Mark’s honor.
Adam, you’re a dumbass.
Great interview, although there are a few typos here and there. The content was great though and thanks for posting this on your site. I’ve been noticing a lot of Dianetics commercials recently on the History channel and a few others. I think Scientology is just trying to say “HEY WE’RE STILL HERE”. The ad on tv didn’t say anything other then the word dianetics though. I would assume they want people to google it and learn more from their site.
Dear Anon, Thanks for the compliments. As for the typos, eh, they happen. Also, since this was an interview and I don’t like to go back and edit interviews, there is probably a greater chance than normal of typos appearing. Plus, I’m human and this is my blog and not the NYT :D
Yes, I am a dumbass for once having a sliver of faith in a cult that believes they are capable of “completely dismantling of the Church of Scientology.”
I am also a dumbass because I understand how online advertising works.
I am also a dumbass because I’m able to comprehend that an interview conducted through textual means also includes typos and reflects a more accurate account of what transpired during that interview.
Great comment, although Google has a capital G.
Now you’re just an anal dumbass Adam.
This is the internet, I was merely pointing that out. That doesn’t discredit the interview in anyway. Thanks for being so defensive too. Not to be too tin-foil hatty here, but you clearly have no idea how the Anonymous movement works and seem to be very defensive. You care not for the article, but only to try to discredit the movement in general. Scilon plant?
Yes, clearly I have no idea how it works as I didn’t quote directly from their website. Nor have I seen them protest jovially to avoid “handlers”.
Perhaps, and I’m just throwing this out there, the whole Anonymous movement is a Scilon plant. Maybe they exist for the sole purpose of creating attention and buzz as no press is bad press. Maybe you’re the leader of Anonymous, too!
I think I’ll start the Onymous movement to expose the stupidity of some of you Anonymous members.
Sarcasm just sails right over your big thick head doesn’t it? Another great comment but Internet has a capital I. Correct those typos!
Can’t we all just get along?!
I’m fine with that, this guy just seems a little too full of himself. :/ It reminds me of how a kid reacts when confronted. They just get defensive immediately and start spewing profanities and sarcasm without even listening to what they are saying. He still has no clue what he’s talking about and I guess he never will. Enough of this, however. Great interview, again. Fell free to delete comments as you please.
Defensive? The first thing you responded with was calling me a dumbass. And I’m defensive? Oh, Mighty Anonymous Defender! For the record, the first use of profanity in these comments came from… you!
If you’re going to continue reiterating that I have no clue as to what I’m talking about, enlighten me oh mighty and wise one.
More than likely you’re about college age and still living in your parents basement in North Dakota where you feel you’re making a difference by opposing CoS with your comments online. I suppose your opposition to CoS is fitting considering your state has more churches per capita than any other and you’re the 48th least populous. Everyone your age needs a cause to protest, even if they live in North Dakota and have never been to an Anonymous protest nor done anything other than read about the cause online, right?
Please don’t delete comments, this has become entertaining to me. Stirring the Anonymous pot is like stirring up the Jesus freaks in the “deep South”.
I find it funny that you think you’re accomplishing anything with this “argument” of yours Adam. At the very best, you’re a troll and, at the worst, you’re highly uneducated in the events of these protests. You claim to know things about us and have claimed to have read up on us, but clearly you know nothing at all. There is no point in trying to educate you when you have already been to “our website”, which there are many, and seem to have a very clear understanding of what you wanted to say. Also, the term “dumbass” should be acceptable here, considering the “Dumbass of the Week” section of Jordon’s blog. There is no one person representing any part of Anonymous. If you spent even a second educating yourself on this, you would have already known this. Instead, you prove yourself the dumbass here and start flinging around words that have no supportive information. You act like where a person lives somehow affects his or her actions or has an impact on how important his or her actions actually are. So Teddy Roosevelt was a bad president and knew nothing about what he was doing because he was from North Dakota? This is not even a logical correlation and it’s nothing more then elitist talk. As far as protests, why should it matter what age anyone is who protests? If someone believes in something, they should speak their mind. You could say that everyone everyone’s age needs something to protest. Ever heard of the Gulf War, the Berlin Wall, Vietnam, Women’s Rights, Segregation, World War 1, Slavery, etc. The list goes on and on. Also, I have been to a protest. I drove 400 miles to attend one and it was great. Some people protest to feel great about themselves, for instance Code: Pink, but others protest because they feel change is actually possible. I’m not speaking for anyone else here, but I feel that this is a worthwhile endeavor. Of course you won’t say anything to refute any of this because of your “Always attack, never defend” stance of “argument”.
Also, it’s Jordan’s blog. If she feels these comments are unnecessary, then she can remove them. We can carry then on at any time via e-mail, but really you have said nothing of noteworthiness yet.
If anyone is trolling it would be you. You felt compelled to insult me with a profane word. Dumbass is an acceptable term in my book but you’re the one who accusingly stated I had to use profanity, which in fact I did not, YOU did, in your very first post, in your very first sentence.
I have not heard of any of these historical world events that you so cleverly pointed out. I’ve only taken part in previous combat operations in the Middle East. This probably doesn’t qualify me to have an opinion of such momentous world altering events. Perhaps I should educate myself first.
I am not attempting to accomplish anything. What gave you the impression that I wanted to accomplish anything? The sarcastic humor of this, to use your quote, “argument” is so far beyond you… that I don’t even know what to call it.
Case in point, “Maybe you’re the leader of Anonymous, too!”. Are you that unintelligent that you can’t recognize this as sarcastic humor?
First you state that I’m being defensive and now I’m always attacking? Which is it? Make up your mind please.
Where someone lives does dictate the impact of their actions. Are you going to tell me Martin Luther King Jr. could have had the same impact on society if he were in Alaska?
I’m curious, what words am I flinging around that have “no supportive information”?
“You claim to know things about us and have claimed to have read up on us, but clearly you know nothing at all.” This sounds like the same rhetoric CoS spews. “Scilon plant”.
Another great comment by the Anonymous North Dakotan. By the way, you spelled Jordan wrong the first time you typed her name, it does not contain two o’s. It is J-o-r-d-a-n, not J-o-r-d-o-n. Correct those typos!
I’m not sure if you know how to properly debate. Nice rambling though. You win the sarcasm award as well ;). You sure are good at attacking the individual instead of the content. I like that typo spiel you keep mentioning at the end of each comment; it’s comical. Thanks so much for the Crusades in the Middle East. I don’t know what the world would have done without you.
What content? You have yet to provide any content other than I’m a dumbass and don’t understand how your Anonymous works. You have failed miserably at providing any grounds to properly debate on. And I am placing this burden upon you since you are the one that attacked me.
You have issues with thinking for yourself don’t you? “Nice rambling though.” I’m not the one who creates three-page run-on paragraphs that explain how I drove 400 miles for a protest so I could make a difference by hiding behind my goofy mask. A movement without a face is a dead movement.
In case you need a refresher on debate and argument, here is a universally accepted outline: Premise 1, Premise 2, Premise 3, etc., therefore, Conclusion.
The “Crusades in the Middle East”. Yes I had a choice as to where the government decided to wage combat. Thanks for being so supportive behind your monitor. I’m sure you’ll have the same impact on CoS. I don’t know what the world would do without another opinionated person online.
On a side note, since the “Crusades in the Middle East” began in 2003, has there been an attack on American soil? My how quickly some people seem to forget why we originally went there (the second time). You just keep on believing what people tell you instead of developing your own opinions and thoughts. In all seriousness, think about my statement for a while. We went to Japan after Pearl Harbor, did the Japanese attack us on a scale as grand as that ever again? I’ll let you work that one out.
Follow the little Anonymous bandwagon and be sure to jump on the next one that gains any sort of notoriety. Until then, keep on fighting the good fight against CoS.. because they REALLY matter. Just don’t forget your mask.
“I’m not the one who creates three-page run-on paragraphs that explain how I drove 400 miles for a protest so I could make a difference by hiding behind my goofy mask.”
“The “Crusades in the Middle East”. Yes I had a choice as to where the government decided to wage combat.”
I find it funny that you took it that way, when I clearly was talking about the Crusades and not the War on Terrorism.
Troll 3/10
Good try, but way too obvious. Would not rage again.
Ok, ok. Enough! I’m not going to delete the comments, because I believe in free speech (obviously). However, maybe there might be a more productive way to have this argument? A pissing match won’t do anyone any good. I’m all for thoughtful discourse, really…but are we accomplishing anything here? :)
(Sidenote: If anyone reading this thinks they have carte blanche to leave any sort of abusive or profane comments, I won’t approve it in the first place. I said I believed in free speech, not abuse)
Hey Jordan,
I’ve been following the cult of $cientology with a compulsive fascination since 1999 and Mark Bunker is certainly one of my online heroes. This is probably the best interview I’ve seen on the subject. You guys managed to succinctly explain the cult in a relatively brief format. Great questions and great answers. Nice little flamewar too . . . funny how those things flare-up whenever anyone types the word “Scientology” on the internet.
Artoo, Thanks! I appreciate the kind words! As for the flame war, at least people are paying attention to the subject at hand and feel strongly about it. That’s the first step towards awareness and change. :)
A good interview is always a great way to reveal a subject. I choose to use Hubbard’s own words (and my music) to reveal the breadth of his bats&*t craziness. http://vimeo.com/1227000
Thanks again for the great interview.
Adam, Anonykota you are both dumbasses …
Adam you just come here and state: “You obviously do not understand how Adsense or any other ad generation software works on the web” so can you please enlighten us how did you come to this conclusion and perhaps give an advise? btw, if you were familiar a little with anonymous culture, you would know that calling someone dumbass doesn’t really mean a thing so don’t be all butthurt about it.
Anonykota read your posts and admit you failed to make any argument ;) calling someone “scilon plant” because he thinks you don’t know anything about advertising is stupid … at most it is ignorant.
Do I really need to explain this? If you’ve read the first comment you’d understand.
Anonymous stated, “Sadly, you have flash Scientology ads on your website, in this very article. You know better.”
Does he or she truly believe that Jordan went out of her way to place Scientology ads on the site that only show up for this interview (post)?
Ad generation selects keywords and matches them to the best available ad and then that ad is placed on the site. Perhaps you should consult Google’s FAQ regarding AdSense or any other brand’s help/support documentation for advertising. You know, maybe, learn a little of their “culture”.
Just because your “culture” accepts the term “dumbass” as a normal term does not mean it applies universally. You wouldn’t go to Germany and use the “Ok” gesture (index and thumb touch to form a circle and then other fingers raised) would you? In Germany, that gesture is obscene and you’d likely find yourself in a heap of trouble.
I thought they taught that in English class in high school… avoid jargon unless what you’re attempting to convey is fully understood by your audience as a whole. Then again, I am a dumbass.
Ah, thanks for explanation. I don’t know what “Anonymous” poster believes but you actually have control over ads displayed (although limited), maybe you should * FAQ yourself. It’s even mentioned in last part of interview. But then, I think it’s good that Sci ads are appearing on sites critical of it as they are practically useless there, costing CoS money … LOL. Unfortunately, that can be exploited by them as they did with several anonymous related sites (enturbulation.org, epicanon.com) claiming financial damage and instead blocking their ads on affected sites google canceled whole adsense accounts, so that’s how “modern” advertisement “works”. If you are interested in this, here is link to whole thread about it:
http://forums.enturbulation.org/17-archive/enturbulation-orgs-adsense-account-disabled-google-13867/
This attitude of yours is quiet entertaining. You act as you know everything and others know $#17. Flashnews: YOU DON’T! To hell with defensive/offensive, why not try to be constructive?
Sorry, I’m not from English speaking country, so no English class in high school. I was not trying to excuse the dumbass thing, but explain it … if you get butthurt everytime someone calls you this and that on some comment section you wouldn’t get anywhere, welcome to Internets, LOL.
Oh and yeah … you are a dumbass. Everybody is dumbass, I’m dumbass … I don’t care, why do you, it’s pointless.
* insert “read”, sorry couldn’t help it
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